Bad Fuel Pump? NOPE, bad timing belt.

I have a 2004 5 speed hatchback that just turned 80,000 a few weeks ago.
Yesterday, I was running a few errands, and after my last stop, the car would not start.

It turns over but just won't start. I checked the fuel pump fuse and relay and all seems o.k. there.
When I checked the pressure this morning, the gauge went to 50 when the ignition was turned on, but then gradually dropped. This was a used Autozone loan-a-tool, so I'm not sure of the quality of the gauge anymore.
Also, I'm a big n00b to the fuel system, so I hope my questions aren't too crazy.

When the fuel pressure drops with the ignition on but engine off, should the pump kick back in to repressurize the line? When opening the bleeder valve on the gauge or manually pressing the schrader valve with the ignition on, I only got the tiniest squirt of gas and then nothing.

Is this indicative of a bad pump? What else can I do to test it?
Any help is aprreciated (and I'll keep scouring this site looking for answers in the mean-time)

Thanks,
Steve

that sounds like the priming of the fuel pump works, but the running of the fuel pump does not. Priming only happened once per key turn on most cars.

Its possibly a few items, like the fuel pump relay. Since the fuel pump works to prime the system, I'd hold off on jumping in to replace that. It could also be the oil pressure sensor, its will cut fuel if it does not read pressure after start up. I would test those two things to see if that solves the problem.

The leak down on the system since it dropped from 50 psi might be indicative of the fuel pump, can you start it? does it idle?

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Originally Posted by petrified.rabbit

that sounds like the priming of the fuel pump works, but the running of the fuel pump does not. Priming only happened once per key turn on most cars.

Its possibly a few items, like the fuel pump relay. Since the fuel pump works to prime the system, I'd hold off on jumping in to replace that. It could also be the oil pressure sensor, its will cut fuel if it does not read pressure after start up. I would test those two things to see if that solves the problem.

The leak down on the system since it dropped from 50 psi might be indicative of the fuel pump, can you start it? does it idle?

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I was just reading another thread about the oil pressure sensor, so I'm going to check that.
I can't get it to start/idle at all. It turns over fine, but that's it.

I changed the relay with a known working one, and that didn't make any difference either.

Thanks. I'll post back with results.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by petrified.rabbit

that sounds like the priming of the fuel pump works, but the running of the fuel pump does not. Priming only happened once per key turn on most cars.

Its possibly a few items, like the fuel pump relay. Since the fuel pump works to prime the system, I'd hold off on jumping in to replace that. It could also be the oil pressure sensor, its will cut fuel if it does not read pressure after start up. I would test those two things to see if that solves the problem.

The leak down on the system since it dropped from 50 psi might be indicative of the fuel pump, can you start it? does it idle?

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O.k. I pulled the oil pressure sensor and cranked it with same result. I didn't see any sort of corrosion or buildup on it either. I pulled the plug wires to test for spark (spark was good) and discovered that #3 was soaked with oil. Time to check the gasket I suppose?

Edit: I can also hear the pump working as the engine is cranking, so there's that...

oil on one spark plug most like wont cause a no start, even a blown head gasket will run, not well, but run.

how did you test the oil pressure? just unplugged it and tried to restart the car? you cranked it over with no sensor in there? did you spray oil every where? this is where no one has reported back, but i think its a ground, and fault to open. which means if you unplug it, you need to ground the wire to "bypass" the pressure switch. And see if that runs, but try t with it unplugged as well.

your still building fuel pressure at key on right? how fast is pressure leaking down?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by petrified.rabbit

oil on one spark plug most like wont cause a no start, even a blown head gasket will run, not well, but run.

how did you test the oil pressure? just unplugged it and tried to restart the car? you cranked it over with no sensor in there? did you spray oil every where? this is where no one has reported back, but i think its a ground, and fault to open. which means if you unplug it, you need to ground the wire to "bypass" the pressure switch. And see if that runs, but try t with it unplugged as well.

your still building fuel pressure at key on right? how fast is pressure leaking down?

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Yup, just pulled and tested, then reseated and tested again. No oil spray when it was unplugged.

I'm going to recheck the pressure drop as I just noticed that the o-ring on the gauge is very messed up. Hopefully that was the cause of the drop.

Report to follow.

I replaced the o-ring in the gauge. I'm getting a constant 55psi with no dropping.

Edit: I want to make sure we're on the same page as the oil pressure sensor. When I say I pulled it, I meant that I pulled the plug (green wire).

off the oil sensor on the back of the block near the crank pulley? try to ground it on the block and see if it runs, or if it is just unplugged.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by petrified.rabbit

try to ground it on the block and see if it runs, or if it is just unplugged.

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No luck either way.

Here's the latest:
I pulled the plugs out this afternoon. As I said before, #3 had a lot of oil in there. The plug was covered top and bottom.
When I pulled the wire for #4, the metal plug part stayed behind, still attached to the top of the plug. I was definitely getting spark on that one yesterday, but it seems there's a good chance it wasn't all that great of a connection. Also, plug #4 had oil all over it.

So now I'm going to change the plugs and the wires and take care of the oil before I check anything else. Yay...

Replaced the plugs, wires, valve cover gasket this evening. Not that I was expecting them to, but the plugs and wires didn't make a difference.

Have a reader coming tomorrow, and plan on checking compression as well.

Argh....

Here's the latest. I pulled the plugs and checked for compression.
Cylinder #1 was the only one that gave me any reading. It only showed about 65psi on the gauge (although the gauge is a crappy loaner tool from autozone and the accuracy is suspect). When the gauge was in the first socket, the engine still sounded like it was turning over. ruh-ruh-ruh-ruh-ruh, if you will. When inserted in the remaining sockets, it would just go ruuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, just an even, stable noise. Didn't sound like anything was turning.


The ruuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhh is also what I got with no plugs and no gauge.

Aaaannnddddd, the verdict is:
Attachment 5548

Now, before the engine didn't start, I had no indication that there was anything wrong with the way the engine was running.
A few questions:

- Assuming the teeth on the belt stripped when trying to crank the engine and not before, what are the chances that there is internal damage?
- If I go ahead and replace the belt, without checking the internals, is there a chance I might do more damage?
- I obviously am unable to mark the belt (as suggested in the timing belt guide in another thread). How do I assure that the new belt is put on with the correct teeth in the correct spaces (or I guess, the correct number of teeth between gears, etc.)?

And mods/admins, could the thread title be changed to "Timing Belt Issues" or something similar to make this thread easier to find for future readers?

Thanks,
Steve

that is definitely a problem there..

the chance of internal damage is still high, it might be lessened due to only 2-4 valves sticking down if the top end wasnt moving. You can replace the belt in hopes of setting time and then checking compression again.

I would set the timing marks to tdc. not much more you can do, the but the belt on, turn it over by hand and see if the marks sill line up.

I changed the belt today, checked and rechecked and rechecked the timing, and triple checked to make sure everything got back to where it came from.
Well, I started the engine up and it sounded like crap, and was shaking like crazy.
I checked the compression (the gauge may or may not be entirely accurate), and got a reading of 100 psi on cylinders 1 & 3. # 4 topped out at about 90, and #2 had a big fat ZERO.

Any suggestions on where to move from here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEx-MAIzhvM

you need to rebuild your head and replace valves.

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Originally Posted by petrified.rabbit

you need to rebuild your head and replace valves.

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Yeah...I knew that was the answer. I just hope someone would tell me different :)

I've done some searching, but is there a tutorial for removing the head? AllDataDIY has some info, but the illustrations leave something to be desired...of course, if there's not, I guess this is as good a time as any to make one.

Wouldn't it be easier to just pick up a replacement engine?

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Originally Posted by freddingo

Wouldn't it be easier to just pick up a replacement engine?

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Easier perhaps. Cheaper it would not be.

its not easier, and definitely not cheaper. You can leave 90% of the engine compartment intact to pull the head, you need to take out most everything to replace the engine.