My first problem! (Engine won't crank - lights dim)

=D> Car will bump start ( Aveo 5 with 5 speed - 2008 model 26,666 miles- yeah- I know- at least that's better than 66,666 miles...) but with three known good batteries that make all the lights bright, etc. as soon as I shove in the clutch to bypass the neutral safety switch ( or whatever they are called on new cars these days ) and switch the key to the start position I hear the juice buzz down, hear a click, the buzzer sounds anemic and the interior lights go dim. Also, the icon for electrical ( same as the icon inside the fuse box ( looks like a section view of a tire with tread and exclamation mark in the center ) stays continuously illuminated in the speedo cluster. It started with trying to start it yesterday and the light was intermittent. Managed to bump start the car and get it home. Tested the battery in it as well as two batts I have on hand for my hobby cars. The problem seems to be on the positive side of the battery circuit. Perhaps the 100 amp fuse that is part of the positive cable? I also switched out relays and fuses in the fuse block that looked like they might be part of the starting/running circuit ( like the ignition 1 and 2 fuses and the "main" relay. No change. So what are the possibilities? Thanks ahead of time.

Steve

the tire with exclamation point is your tpms light, its to tell you the tire pressure is low.

sounds like a bad starter? is that the click, or is it in the dash, then relay? Most things "power off" during start like the radio, lights etc. But depending where the click is that would be your problem.

your still under warranty?

wait, buzzer? there is a buzzer?

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Originally Posted by petrified.rabbit

wait, buzzer? there is a buzzer?

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Yes, I left the door was open or the seatbelt unfastened while trying to start so I'm referring to the warning buzzer that is usually strident and irritating being reduced to a mosquito's buzz once the key is rotated to the start position. At the same time the interior light goes from bright to a weak hospital yellow and the lights in the dash cluster start dimming/ blinking. On recall there really isn't a "click" per se as with older cars when the solenoid isn't pushing the starter armature/gear out to engage the flywheel teeth as much as the buzzer goes to a sickly little bleep and it's clear the battery amperage is being sucked all the way down, like there is a giant short in the system.
As to the icon for the TPMS why is the same icon on the inside of the fuse cover, and I don't mean in there next to a reference, like "TPMS" but centered on the inside of the cover? At least, that's how I recall it. Nonetheless, I initially thought that's what the symbol meant, low tire pressure, so I inflated the tires from a measured ( warm ) 32 psi to 42 psi. No change. So, the simultaneous problem of the juice suck-down upon attempting to crank the engine and the trouble icon in the dash pod led/leads me to believe there is an interconnected problem, a common bad/short circuit. Perhaps not and they are two unrelated defects that happened to occur once the bad starter, bad clutch pedal relay, or whatever in the starting circuit is the problem drew down current and there's a short which has illuminated the TPMS sensor light? I don't yet have a Technical Service Manual for the car, or even an owners manual. I can see it would be nice to have either or both.

Yes, the car is still under the bumper to bumper warranty that would likely cover this issue. Was wondering if this is a typical occurrence in such a low mileage car? Or if someone had had a related problem and what caused it? The last thing I want is someone simply throwing parts at the problem without true troubleshooting of the cause and why. The whole point to buying the car is to have a point A to point B and back again ride that is a jump in and start affair. I already have two hobby cars!

Steve

Lmk with the buzzer I was thinking you might have somehow enacted the immobilizer. I don't know anyone who actually has yet nbut it cuts the power to the starter. At least that's the information I found about the aveo immobilizer. I'm still not buying we have an actual immobilizer.

From the sounds of it you your tpms light is on because you are still at the wrong pressure. Too low or too high it will be on. Or if you don't have the factory wheels, no sensors, one bad sensor or so
Many other issues with them. It's a waste but federal government knows best. The pressure has to be within 1-2 lbs either way of the sticker in the door.

The short to ground fel of the starting circuit sounds like the starter relay or the starter itself though. But that's hard to say as I don't have the car. But you are not experiencing a common problem. If that is what you are looking for.

Might be worth a try rapping the starter/solenoid with a hammer.

See: http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2421621

Thanks for the replies and the link. After thinking about the symptoms it likely is very similar to the problems covered in the Honda link with the starter being the culprit as it's clear the problem is a grounding/short issue and the starter in any car draws alot of amps. If those amps are grounded ( short ) I'd imagine the symptoms listed are consistent with that. It could be the relay but if that shorted I'd think the car would mimic the situation when you don't shove the clutch in, nothing. Although if an intermittent short through the relay maybe what's occurring would be in line with a bad starter depending how the circuit is wired. With older cars you usually get warning symptoms with various components/circuits going bad like hard cranking/slow cranking for starter. With later batteries that operate at high efficiency until they suddenly don't have sufficient juice deliver, to high torque starters that wind out until they ground out/brushes don't contact the armature any more. It works great one second, sayanara the next... Used to older cars "warning" me before something fails. I'll take her in for warranty repair and see what they say. Thanks all.

Steve

Well, post back when you find out what it was.

For anyone that wants to keep their TPMS when running aftermarket tires.

Some dealers will reprogram the tpms on your vehicle for the pressure specifications of your new tires. When changing tires and rim sizes, the recommended inflation pressure may change as well. If you want to keep a functional TPMS, then talking to your local dealers while in the buying process would be a very good idea. If the pressure is close enough, the tpms may not even require any dealer changes, just simply relearn it at the new pressure, and you are good to go. I'm going to look more into this over the week, and post about costs, and etc.

A bit off topic, but good info.

I'll let you know, scheduled to go in on Monday. The tires/wheels are 175/65/14 and were on the car when i bought it three weeks ago. The sensor light came on at the exact moment I first experienced the starting problem. About 99.9% sure the sensor(s) or sending unit went haywire with whatever is causing the giant amp draw. Maybe the fuse for the sensors went bad because of a short. We'll see.
Steve

Semi-update. Took car in this morning. Will have answer this afternoon. The tire light did not come on this morning and has remained off. The Service Advisor said that when battery voltage goes below 5 volts sensors lose their memory and then need to relearn the base they are adjusted for. After a few miles of driving and attaining roughly 35 mph they reset. This is apparently what happened though the light was on when I parked it last week as I recall. The other head scratcher is I took the tires from the recommended 31 psi on the door jamb to about 40-42. That's quite a jump above the recommended pressure. But the light's off and I don't care if the tires are well past the theoretical adjustment range!

Steve

40-42 will probably be terrible in rain or snow (I know it is on my bridgestones). For daily driving, I'd leave them around 35psi.

Increased tire pressure is good for rain, bad for snow.

Hmmm, here in California snow is not a worry. We'll see what the long term characteristics are of greater inflation pressures. These wheels/tires won't be on long anyway- going to 15's and 195's.


Steve

To a point, I'd agree... 40-42 is probably rounding out the contact patch

I can only speak from experience... my Dunlop SP60s are terrible on wet road at 40PSI... they're pretty bad on wet road at any ways, though, definitely noticeably worse close to the max pressure rating. I never run my bridgestones at that pressure, so I couldn't say with those.

In any case, give it a shot, just be weary until you know how they react! </derailment>

Perhaps, these particular tires list 35 psi as the minimum pressure with 50 as the max.
Update on the no crank issue, bad battery. Though I put a " known good" Optima in there I forgot to trickle charge it for hours and got a false green flash reading on it. It drew down quickly because it wasn't charged and I noticed that the stock battery is a 550 CC beast. The Optima is a 375 or so and wasn't deep charged. So that explains that. Got an owner's manual too. Now onto mods for this little hot hatch!

Steve

375 cca battery would do that in our cars.

I imagine if it were at full capacity it would provide the cranking amperage to turn it over, nonetheless, expecting a half weight ( 13 lbs. ) muscle car battery meant for a car with points, power steering, a 60 amp alternator, and little else, to fill the gap after sitting in the garage for 4 months was a touch optimistic. I'm guessing the high torque starter motor and higher output alternator on the Aveo ( though my car does not have a/c , sunroof, power windows, nor fog-lamps ) requires a high output battery, though I did note that the minimal acceptable load output is 270 amps minimum ( acceptable for recharging- not necessarily cranking an engine over ) meaning a fully charged 375 Optima should just deliver. However, I'll definitely be looking for a higher output item up the road when I look for a lightweight substitute for the stock GM battery.

Steve

braille battery is your best bet in that case. do some research though, you can save money buying the same battery without the braille sticker, but i dont not recall which it is.

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Originally Posted by petrified.rabbit

braille battery is your best bet in that case. do some research though, you can save money buying the same battery without the braille sticker, but i dont not recall which it is.

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Bet I can tell by feel!:toothy10:

Steve

Well, glad it was just a bad battery.

Did you actually put a voltmeter on it when you were trying to figure out what was wrong?

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Originally Posted by MetroMPG

Well, glad it was just a bad battery.

Did you actually put a voltmeter on it when you were trying to figure out what was wrong?

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What, with my super-human diving powers to aid diagnosis?:confused: Nope, I was too "smart" to hunt down my multi-tester:D. Of course main reason was laziness to hunt down the stuff needed nor to think too deep when I knew it was a warranty issue. Next time though, for peace of mind, I'll extend myself a bit more.;)

Steve
ps - looked up specs on the Optima- 450 CCA- still 100 below the stock GM piece- plus- though relatively light it's 20 plus lbs. Will be looking for a newer, lighter, more powerful piece for the Aveo to start the weight redistribution program for better handling

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MetroMPG

Well, glad it was just a bad battery.

Did you actually put a voltmeter on it when you were trying to figure out what was wrong?

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Ha.. tell me about this and how EFI systems are sensitive to low voltage. My gf's 2010 Corolla would crank real good, but the battery voltage was too low for the ECM to actually work properly. Got the car towed for a low battery.

http://www.braillebattery.com/index.php/batteries/b129/

your "best" light weight battery choice. >10lbs.

In looking at the various rating methods my Orbital acquits itself pretty well once fully charged. The Braille you referenced is 360 equivalent. The Orbital is probably pretty close when looking at Braille's methods. However, in looking at all the battery performance parameters including amp/hour ratings, The Yellow Top I have is rated at 38, vs. 55 on the stocker vs 26 or so for the Braille. I suspect the stocker is closer to half the listed rating using Braille's method. On the other hand, using Braille's method it's ( it, being the Braille ) is rated at 15. Would likely look at their 11.5 lb battery to be closer to what the car needs. Great information you provided and I appreciate the link and the time you took to direct my attention to lightweight choices.

Steve

You didn't change the gas cap, did you? Some newer cars won't start if the cap doesn't seal correctly. Just
another angle to check on.

No, didn't change the cap. To be clear on what happened it was that the engine wouldn't crank at all( turn over ). I'm familiar with the situation you describe, where the engine will spin ( crank ) but won't start ( run ). Thanks for the suggestion.

Steve