agree'd why havent you tied in to the car battery and just stick with 12 volts?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratchet104
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agree'd why havent you tied in to the car battery and just stick with 12 volts?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratchet104
Quite frankly, a complete lack of electrical knowledge, and fear of messing the cars electronics up. :p I AM still a newbie... ;) But I've been working on that... the electric part, that is! The supercharger plans I got from GA Projects call for a 12 volt motorbike battery ran in a series with the car battery, creating 24 volts. You use a Dual-Pole-Dual-Polarity switch that takes you back and forth between a 24 volt series and "charge" mode; putting the batteries in parallel (positive to positive). Believe it or not, I got this figured out. :p (And January marks one year since I took an interest in car tuning! ; ) So... I was just messing around, gradually working up to what I'm about to show some pics of... still a work in progress, but ALMOST done. A full blown, centrifugal supercharger capable of creating 2-2 1/2 psi with 24 volt operation. 3.5-4psi using a second battery, which I may do, making it 36 volt. I KNOW I'll need fuel management then, but my BIG question is: can I run 2 to 2 1/2 psi before adding the AEM fuel management with ignition timing control that I plan to get? Any help on this is GREATLY appreciated, as always! I've heard up to 2 psi is ok without an FMU... so it ay be right over... pics comin' up! :D
P.S.- real quick, while I load pics... the heater fan, just hooked up to the 12 volt motorbike battery... had some SERIOUS kick! I don't doubt these guys when they say that if well constructed, it efficiently creates pretty good boost! :)
http://www.aveoforum.com/forum/attac...11203-1723-jpg http://www.aveoforum.com/forum/attac...11203-1724-jpg http://www.aveoforum.com/forum/attac...11205-2035-jpg
The one on the far right is after the wall was attached to the base... the cage part of the fan is sitting on it, along with the impellor blade that I made (I made all the aluminum parts; cut the metal... drilled, screwed, all that. With SUPER exact measurements [pi and stuff. :p ] from the project design...; ) I've also made the diffuser out of paper card, and will be stiffening it with fiberglass resin tomorrow, along with screwing and cold-welding the fan to the base... after that, it'll be ready for an adaptor for the intake! (made from fiberglass) So, that's the plan. Like I said in the 1st post, I'd REALLY like to know if I NEED fuel/ignition management for 2 - 2 1/2 psi boost. I hope I can add that between 24 & 36 volt versions... I've already switched to the highest octane we have here (91) :D
i would be really surprised if you get 2 psi of boost.
Well... let's assume I do. :D (Read up on it before you doubt... google GA Projects supercharger...) At what point do I have to start worrying about detonation? Wouldn't it be kinda dumb to not prepare for the possible and stated outcome? rabbit, would you plug in a turbo system you got really cheap, that was supposed to generate 8 psi boost, to a car you knew could only handle 5 psi of boost on the engine & just assume it was cheap/old/refurbished/or otherwise not well constructed and risk blowing your engine? THAT'S why I posed the question, and whether this thing works or not, it's a reasonable question: Do you need fuel/ignition management on a 2008 Aveo if you're going to run 2 to 2 1/2 psi of boost? I am using high octane (91) and the air entering the supercharger will be cool (from wheelwell, where it's "vented" ; ) :D
Did you already buy one? Rabbit is right.....
Hey, your doubts are fully justified... especially if you haven't read up on it... ;) But don't get me wrong; I'm not saying that it WILL, or that I expect it too... All I'm saying is that to me, it seems like if you're putting on a part that says "creates X psi" you'd be silly not to prepare for X psi... even if there IS a good chance it may not. Preparing for best/worst case scenario! :) And hunter, I really appreciate your info on the other thread... that makes 2 people I've heard say up to 2 psi is ok on 'bout any car... :D I'd be really happy with any noticeable performance gain, and I DO realize it may be minimal... I expect something, though. The times I took with the 6 volt fan showed a 3/4 second increse. After my snow tires, my time had dropped about a third of a second (0-60mph, same place I always test.) and the small fan setup got me times 1/2 a second better than EVER! So... I DO expect a gain proportionate to the extra voltage... or quite possibly more, due to a more efficient design. If it DOES exceed even 1 or 1 1/2 psi... that'd be FREAKIN' COOL!!! :D It's been a FUN project, and it's all about trying something different! I'll keep ya posted! Fiberglass resin layer 1 drying now... ;)
Hahaha! LEAFBLOWER!!! :D In an early test, this thing blew newspaper not only across the floor, but up against a wall about four feet away and held it there; that was just hooked up to the 12V motorbike battery! ;) Here's the quick results, and I'll go into more detail afterward... (Oh, and it's now hooked up to 24V; the car battery, AND the motorbike battery in a series.)
0-60 mph in the same spot is my standard for testing all the mods I've done. Going back to the last time where I didn't have ANY fan setup (even the small ones helped a little, if placed right) So it was just a CAI, hi-flo muffler, and underdrive pulley with snow tires (which dropped my time a little, but they're still on)... That was 10.97 seconds. Remember, high altitude has an impact on performance; I've heard more than one place 10% loss of power for each mile of elevation is a good general estimate, and I'm testing at roughly 6,000 ft. So, going back to the 10.97 I got after the snow tires, before any fan...
I pulled a 9.85 with the Supercharger last time I tested it. I've also modified the placement even more since then, and expect even better results next time test. I had a passenger ride with that setup, who rode with the current setup, and believes there to be a noticeable improvement again. That's a total of 1.12 seconds off of a 0-60 mph test. With room for more improvement, still. Placement is SO important; I've had it in about 6 different setups, and even made a second model (in ONE DAY! : ) that was smaller, and fit under the hood by sacrificing the diffuser. Tests with the unattached chargers to the same battery proved the 1st to be MUCH more powerful, and it's the one back on there. I don't know the psi being generated, if any, but I do know that two passengers, one of which is a gearhead friend recently met, have both been VERY impressed with the results. As am I!!!!!!! :D Was it worth the time and money invested? ABSO-FREAKIN'-LUTELY! It's taken more than a second off of my time, and broken the 10 second mark. I wouldn't be surprised, with a little more adjustment, if I got close to 9.5 (9.6 or so...) I'm excited for lots of reasons, but one is that I'll get even better results from say, cat-back exhaust and lighter wheels/tires. For those in doubt of the elevation thing; my buddy put a CAI on a Saab, saying there was a definite improvement, but he still wasn't at the factory book times for the car... book says the Aveo goes 0-60 in 11-12 seconds... mine up here was 13+. So, effectively I've taken CLOSE to 3 1/2 seconds off the car with mods... I'll post some more pics of the hookups and setups (I don't have pics of several variations...) and share some more times, if I get more improvement from this... still gonna be playing with it :D Now that ten seconds has been breached... getting into the 8 second range is my goal. I expect to break into the eights with the cat-back exhaust and some ultra-light rims. ;)
All that and my stock mazda 3 is faster, just sayin. Despite the amount of cash i dumped in my Aveo, it aint worth it, save your money for something else. Took me a while to realise that, i guess you get wizer as you get older lol
Yo, I know what ya mean! ;) Keep in mind, I didn't know anything about cars 13 months ago when I bought the Aveo... Except that it was pretty. :p At this point, I DO plan on getting another car at some point. I consider every payment on the Aveo an investment in a new car; but at the same time, I gotta have some fun with it while I got it! ;) I can over-pay monthly and still do mods... I test drove a base model Lancer yesterday, and was WAY under-impressed. I just saw on Fifth Gear that a Porsche Caymen Manual does 0-60 in 5.8 seconds... That puts me only 4 seconds behind a supercar. I look forward to seeing what I can do with the Aveo, but I know... I'll probably trade it in in a few years. They were ready to let me drive off in that Lancer... I guess I just didn't want it, yet. I love my Aveo, & I know you loved yours, too... ;)
Porsche caymen is not a super car, and 4 seconds in a 0-60 is like 1/2? a mile behind them..
Okay... then my Aveo is less than 4 seconds behind a Porsche Caymen, which is not a supercar, but an expensive and nice car, nonetheless. It's a matter of perspective; I've nearly taken 4 seconds off my 0-60 mph time in one year... So, getting another 3 seconds up seems pretty easily attainable. At that point, i'll be less than a second behind a Caymen's 0-60 in my cheap lil' Aveo. :D (Note: I'll bet the Caymen would be over 6 seconds at this altitude... ; )
Back to the actual performance gains... as I mentioned, I tweaked the position and ducting on the supercharger a bit, and I wasn't the only one who thought that there was some improvement.... today's test proved that there was a slight difference; 9.63 seconds. That's 1.34 seconds ahead of the previous time with no fan. That's 1 1/3 second faster 0-60; with a .22 difference made simply by adjusting the placement. I'm quite happy with that! ;)
the first second off the time is easiest, every second after that is 2-3x harder than the one before it.. so second 7 is like 2000x harder than the first..
U should put a fan in the exhaust to clear the combustion gases out faster so the intake fan can push the air in there faster.
Hahahaha... You're joking, right? I may still be a newbie, but I've never heard of such a thing... I AM planning on doing a CAT-back exhaust this spring... that seems to be the way to go for clearing the combustion gasses out faster... I hear headers are great for top-end power, but 1. Last I checked the guy wasn't making any more and 2. they kill your initial torque (so I hear). With the CAT-back, as me and my neighbor were checking out... originally you got 4 pipes going into the CAT, and ONE 1 3/4 inch pipe leaving... it makes sense to open that up, and I hope it will provide a benefit without the sacrifice in torque.
As for the supercharger, I am SO pleased with the results, I just ordered several 80 amp relays to implement the 36Volt operation... the 1.34 second increase in 0-60 time was from only 24 volts... ;D I have left the supercharger in place since the last tests... but I did move it around about half a dozen times. This thing is stuffed in the wheelwell, though... providing a NICE boost. ;) I can flip the switch to turn it on while I've got the gas floored, and after a 1/2 to 3/4 second delay, there is a NOTICEABLE burst of speed... noticeable in not only the times, but in the car from the sudden acceleration, and on the speedometer/rpm gauge as it starts climbing faster... I am VERY excited to see what the next 12 volts do...
And I know what you're saying, rabbit... in theory AND practice, this last project was the biggest/hardest yet. It also provided the SINGLE largest performance gain yet. And for some reason, even having to learn the electical and stuff; it SEEMED easier than the CAI install. In fact, everything about working on the car is getting easier, so I think the "learning curve" makes a difference in how "hard" every next second seems. ;)
I just tried posting some more pics, with the finished product, but there seems to be an issue with the image uploader, again... Doing it the same way I always do; I'll try again soon! Have a fantastic week, everyone! Oh, and has anybody considered the do it yourself tuning software that's available? The ones you hook up with a laptop to your OBD=II port? Just wondering... I emailed Trifecta, asking if they had Aveo tuning software ready to ship. I read here that they were working on it awhile ago. Seeing as how I haven't heard back from'em, I'm considering the DIY route for that, too. :p ;) :)
I want to see a track time......
YEAH!!! :D Me, too! ;) I'll be hittin' Bandimere Speedway for "take it to the track day" at least once this summer; probably after adding the 2 1/4 CAT back exhaust or sports rims & tires... Not sure which I'll be getting 1st; depends on when the snow stops. :p I'll post the time tickets; probably won't be outrageous, partially due to the elevation. You guessed your 0-60 mph times at less than 10 seconds with fewer modifications... But that's in Florida, near sea level. I'll bet my time now (9.63) would be under 8 seconds if I were close to sea level... Nonetheless, I am excited to see my 1/4 mile times! I'd be REALLY happy to be in the low 16's after a few more volts & either rims or exhaust. I'd be surprised if it was any lower, actually... But who knows! I'll post the 0-60 mph time after adding the other motorbike battery, and try the picture uploader again in the near future; before the relays arrive. :p They're gonna be 2-3 weeks coming from Hong Kong, but most relays here that are 24-Volt only go up to 40 Amps... I need at least 50, with 60 being "preferable" according to the GA Projects instructions... ;)
I was absolutely joking... I think your mistaking placebo for real results. Do u have specs on this fan? Does it spin fast enough to create a pressure difference? If it does (which I highly doubt), any gain will be completely negated by additional weight.
Placebo effect can't even begin to explain a 1.3+ second difference in time... I finally dug up the link; any disbelievers, read this: Most notably, the design challenges, which I think is where it states how in theory, it's nearly impossible to create boost with an electric fan... nearly. And the e-supercharger scams.
Build an Electric Supercharger with Real Performance.
And if anybody wants to come to Colorado, I'll make you a believer... ANY TIME. ;)
Ahhh... but on a more articulate and technical note: There IS a point where the supercharger can't keep up with the engine; if you read back on this thread, I mention moving this thing around about half a dozen times. The placement had a definite effect on what point this happened. I tuned it by taking times; there were some arrangements where it went faster 0-40, then had no acceleration. It was obviously restricted, and my 0-60 time dropped. It's been through trial and error with the placement of the completed design that got me where it's at now... with the supercharger on, it provides a noticeable boost up to about 60mph. And then, yes, you can tell it becomes restrictive. BUT! In the GA Projects design, it attaches the switch to the throttle quadrant, so it's always on at WOT (wide open throttle). This would not be good, for the above reason. The way I got mine set up, and the way I'd recommend doing it for anyone daring enough to take on this project, is with an independent on/off switch. It stays on when you shift, providing a little extra kick after every shift, and you can turn it off as soon as you hit 60ish. The way mine's set up, it functions as a short RAM intake when it's off, so acceleration past 60 is still fast and smooth... :)
How long do u think it takes to notice that you've reach 60mph. Then to take a time reading. There's alot of fudge room there. Are you using the same huge fan in all those website pics? What are the specs? Cfm, rpm, weight, etc. I am up for a good challenge of actually using math to evaluate this thing
That statement shows a certain amount of absurdity for two reasons:
1. You act like this thing came out of a box. I don't have the specs for the fan I started with, and if I did, it wouldn't matter. The cfm output changes with the construction of the supercharger casing; and again when an impellor blade and diffuser is employed. They would change again when the baffle is added and the vent holes in the fan sealed, preventing any air from escaping out the backside. When another 12 volts is added, the cfm as well as the rpm changes. To get those specs, you'd have to hook up the completed supercharger to whatever reads those things.
2. Say you got those specs; placement, as before mentioned, is crucial. Whatever the cfm output, if you stuff it in a corner where it can't get as much air as it's capable of moving, performance will suffer, as I've experienced. Also, the type of ducting (straight pipe ---> ribbed flexi-ducting) and amount of ducting is going to have an effect on the delivery of the air to the engine. Furthermore, the air pulled by the engine varies with load. It's easier to just hook it up to your car, play with it, and find the least restrictive setup, and then you can easily tell when the supercharger can't keep up with the engine. When acceleration STOPS. As I said earlier. And then you just turn it off. :D
Weight is probably 5 lbs... 6 with the extra battery, maybe.
I am evaluating and reporting the effects of it actually hooked up to a car; more specifically, an Aveo. If you want the CFM and all that, build one and crunch the numbers yourself; it wasn't that hard to build. And anyone who would like a more credible evaluation of the performance with this thing hooked up, check back! :) I'll post track tickets as hunter suggested, and beyond that, I am planning to take video; side by side performance test on and off. And at some point, I'll hook up a boost gauge, just to satisfy my own curiousity; I'll post the readings here, of course! That should provide a much better evaluation than numbers, and eliminate any room for debate; I have MUCH better things to do. ;)
Ya know I have a leaf blower at home lol and power inverter!!!! maybe after my power chip comes in and the mas wont choke me out I'll get REAL creative! LOL
^ so much winning
Hahaha.... I said it before on this thread, and I'll say it again: LEAFBLOWER!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D (as mentioned earlier, the test in my house with only 12 volts blew newspaper across the room and held it up against the wall OFF THE GROUND 4-5 feet away; with 24 [or imagine 36 volts!] the supercharger I constructed is probably comparable to the power of a leafblower. ; )
P.S.-Thanks for the reminder, rabbit! ;) The DIY tuning software I got (see other thread DIY tuning software :p ) has a dynamometer funtion (along with fuel management, ignition timing, etc.) This should provide a VERY good test of the supercharger's power... once I figure out how to use it (the software, that is ; )
What about dry ice?
Hmmm... for extra cooling? Colder air is not really an issue right now, as it's been staying in the 30's... in the summertime, it may be a different story; might provide some benefit, but it'd be a pain to keep getting it... with the tuning software, I'll be able to add fuel/retard ignition timing to avoid engine knocking if that becomes an issue in the warmer weather with another 12 volts added...
Lol, i was just trolling off the leaf blower. I know dry ice's benefits are only for colder air.
Hey, I'm all for crazy ideas! I think at least one leafblower comment was a joke but it works! (thanks again, rabbit! ; ) and y'know... I've thought about taking those whip-its (nitrous chargers) and trying to run a hose from the car's interior into the intake; where I could have the capsule in a little holder with a button, puncture it, and feed it into the intake through a hose... it's be a nitrous setup for less than $50! :p Only thing that stopped me from trying that was finding out that possession of an open container of nitrous in a car in Colorado can get you a DUI... :p ;) :)
you can put in a "real" nos set up for less than $50 if you buy used, know what to do, and keep it simple..
its the actual nos and bottle that makes things expensive.