Trans Flush Question (2009 Aveo5 A/T)

[dukeofmuffins]

I had an odd experience with my neighborhood dealer, and it's been bugging me for a while, so I thought I'd see what you guys thought. As I was getting ready for a 6 month deployment a few months ago, I figured it was a good time to swap out the trans fluid, in addition to the usual oil change and storage prep. I know the fluid is supposedly a "long life" variety, but it was looking pretty cruddy (sitting around 50k miles atm). While in the dealer service office, I noticed they had been overtaken by the B&G company and it's line of services. I inquired as to the type of fluid they would be using, and was assured it would be a full type IV fluid swap, not a "universal" fluid. It seemed a bit "too good to be true" since type IV is more pricey than others, but it was a direct question, so I couldn't imagine a direct lie in return. Later that day I returned to pick up the car, and popped the hood in the lot to check their handiwork. Not that I didn't trust them, I just hadn't seen fresh trans fluid since I bought the thing 3-4 years ago, and was curious. I was a bit surprised to see it was still grey. I couldn't tell if it was actually better than before in terms of clarity, since I didn't have a "before" sample to look at. I thought maybe the fluid in the dipstick tube was nasty and maybe clouding up what I was looking at. So I drove a few miles to fill-up, but the AT fluid still looked the same. Even a few hundred miles later, it still looked the same. Now I'm not the unrealistic sort, I knew be BRIGHT NEON RED, but I thought maybe a dark red wasn't an unreasonable expectation. Or am I completely misunderstanding fluid swaps/flushes? I emailed the dealer about my concern, and they replied saying that it was a detergent product used during the flush that somehow darkens the subsequently added fluid. Had I know that, I wouldn't have let them do the swap. As controversial as flushes are, I certainly didn't want anything BUT trans fluid in there. But it was done, so that was that. Still that answer didn't sit well, so I emailed B&G products directly. I was surprised to hear back, and from the sounds of it, they provide their own line of synthetic fluids, some of which are a darker red, and might appear grey if they intermingle with even a slight amount of old fluid. This raises the question of: did they not use true type IV fluid like I asked? Suppose I will have to ask to see the container next time I'm in. Still, how can a flushed transmission's fluid not show ANY red at all? How then can a customer know the service was done, barring a lab test (last resort)? I know I didn't pose an exact question in this, but I wondering what people think. The more think back myself, I'm finding myself not wanting to trust that dealer anymore. I'll be due for the ol' timing belt job soon, and I don't feel like I trust these guys right now.

Note: I'm not asking about the merits of trans fluid swaps, nor the pro/cons of swaps/partial changes/pan drops/etc. With the age of my transmission, I reckoned the risk of damage due to fluid exchange was minimal, and that fresh fluid being in there for 6 months of storage seemed a good idea.

Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. I love this forum!

[RicochetRandy]

That it's an '09 makes me wonder... There appears to be an issue regarding coolant and transmission fluid mixing together because the tanks are, well, both on the site of the radiator and are basically one big plastic tank divided in half.
http://www.aveoforum.com/forum/f108/...n-fluid-15423/

What does your coolant look like?

[dukeofmuffins]

Well that's a scary thought! Wasn't aware that was an even an issue with 09s. I'm still out in the desert for a few months, but I don't recall the coolant looking bad. It looked, um, "coolant-y"? A clear, maybe slightly yellowed fluid (that could have been the reservoir plastic). No glistening on the top, like you'd see from oils floating on top. Also had the radiator coolant drained and filled at the same time, dealer didn't mention anything off about it. If they were up for some money I'd think they would point out a problem like that.

[Thymeclock]

I had an odd experience with my neighborhood dealer, and it's been bugging me for a while, so I thought I'd see what you guys thought. As I was getting ready for a 6 month deployment a few months ago, I figured it was a good time to swap out the trans fluid, in addition to the usual oil change and storage prep. I know the fluid is supposedly a "long life" variety, but it was looking pretty cruddy (sitting around 50k miles atm).

If the fluid looks cruddy it's long past due for a change.

I suggest you read this thread click here for a better understanding of transmissions and fluid.

An automatic transmission is THE most expensive mechanical part of any car to repair. Dealers and even manufacturers will tell you the fluid in it never needs to be changed. Unscrupulous repair shops will tell you any BS story that they might con you with - after taking your money. You know little or nothing and they are pros at lying through their teeth. The will exploit your lack of knowledge, because there is monetary gain in it.

Transmission fluid should look bright red. Not grey. Not pink, Not brown. Sure, your transmission will continue to function even if the fluid is worn out or degraded. Sooner or later it will fail. Any excuses and rationalizations made about the color and condition of the fluid, no matter who is saying them, are absolute nonsense.

It's easy to do a partial drain and refill yourself if the fluid looks deficient - it's as easy as draining and changing your oil. But people believe the BS and hokum that they are told by supposedly higher authorities, because they don't know any better. And so they wait until it is too late. Who profits from that?

The Aisin (made in Japan) automatic transaxle on all Aveos is apparently a very dependable (although ineffieicent) unit. Keep the fluid fresh and clean, and your tranny will probably last the life of your car without needing repair.

[gothstone]

You got screwed duke. When I change tranny fluid it comes out brownish. Whats on the dipstick when I'm done is blood red, just like it comes out of the bottle. Grey is just wrong.

[avguy]

... How then can a customer know the service was done, barring a lab test ...

IMO, the very simple answer to that question is you can't know. B&G is telling you the additive they use can turn the red fluid grey. How can anyone (who is not a chemist or in the petroleum business) say that is not the truth?
Yes, it smells like fish and may be total BS, but how can anyone who is not in that profession know for certain?

For $25 plus shipping, you can have Blackstone Labs analyze this tranny oil (there are probably other labs who also do this same thing). That report should come back reading that the fluid is basically in like new condition. So if the report comes back looking like old fluid, it means either they stirred up a bunch of nasties with the flush and didn't clear them out, or else they didn't do the work at all.
And (if it did come back bad), with a negative report like that in hand, even their best dealer dance couldn't get them off the hook.
JMHO, but without a lab report, it's all just speculation.

[dukeofmuffins]

Sounds like what I expected. Guess I'll send off a sample to Blackstone when I get back. I actually have a sample kit, I just ran outta time to do stuff before I deployed. Since I've put a few miles on it since the 'change', the testing should be able to identify if the radiator is leaking as well. I have just enough time left on the warranty to get that replaced too. The tranny is shifting smooth still, no burnt smells from the fluid, so with any luck, no permanent damage is done. But hey, if there is, they can replace that too If the radiator is leaking into the trans fluid I'll definitely demand a thorough transmission check. I feel like if I got completely lied to about a service, with irrefutable evidence (the lab report), they'll be hard pressed to refuse any request.

I appreciate the thoughts guys, I'll definitely resurrect this thread when I get the results.

[Thymeclock]

IMO, the very simple answer to that question is you can't know. B&G is telling you the additive they use can turn the red fluid grey. How can anyone (who is not a chemist or in the petroleum business) say that is not the truth?
Yes, it smells like fish and may be total BS, but how can anyone who is not in that profession know for certain?

See? That's how the game is played. By raising doubt in your mind. That's the big mind F--k: Who are we to know? Who are we to judge?

BTW, auto repair is not a "profession". It's merely a trade - and it's often a dirty business, in more ways than one.

I will say it is not the truth, and if you don't like my opinion which is based upon experience, I don't care whether you agree or not.

For $25 plus shipping, you can have Blackstone Labs analyze this tranny oil (there are probably other labs who also do this same thing). That report should come back reading that the fluid is basically in like new condition. So if the report comes back looking like old fluid, it means either they stirred up a bunch of nasties with the flush and didn't clear them out, or else they didn't do the work at all.
And (if it did come back bad), with a negative report like that in hand, even their best dealer dance couldn't get them off the hook.
JMHO, but without a lab report, it's all just speculation.

Can you be like a smart fish, and spit the hook out of your mouth before you get hauled in again? Or do you now want to be hit up for another $25, in addition to what you've already spent? Even if it did prove something, at this point, what difference will it make?

Regarding transmission fluid, all you need to do is to use your eyes and your nose to realize the truth. Or you can throw away another $25 (plus shipping... ). The choice is yours.

[avguy]

So Thymeclock, to summarize your last post: the OP was given a hose job by the dealer, and he should just suck it up, roll over and play dead. Now that's a bit odd, because you've been known to rail against GM maybe once or twice. So when someone comes along who may want to actually try fighting back, you say "Even if it did prove something, at this point, what difference will it make?"
So, bottom line, let's all scream against GM and the dealers, but no one should ever try to do anything about what's happening to us.
Well, the OP already indicated he's up for a fight, so to him I'll say
And you Thymeclock can feel free to rip up this post, because that's certainly something you have proven yourself to be a master of.

[RicochetRandy]

Calm down here, that's not what Thymeclock's intention was. The fluid clearly didn't get changed, and so there's no reason to test it, and not much can be done about it other than actually changing it. He (and myself for that matter) simply failed to find any reasoning in spending $25 for some lab to tell us what we already know! Just pissing money away.

Bottom line would be to just change the flippin fluid before that nice transmission has anything happen to it!