'06 Ongoing Steering/Handling Issue Summary

Edit: Now moved to correct forum

So those who've been following my few posts would know that I've had an ongoing issue with what feels like loose/uneven steering, especially noticeable at highway speeds. The car seems to 'wander a bit' and there is some play in the steering wheel. When I brake the car pulls just a bit to the right, when I accelerate the car pulls an even tinier bit to the left it seems.

Now, before this issue the steering and handling were precise. So I have a baseline of which to compare.

Thought maybe it was the power steering rack- when we first lowered the car it was too low and the steering would hit the 'bump stops' or something before full lock. This was new to me, being new to lowering cars, but it occurred to me probably lots of lowered cars have this issue.. but in any case I just decided to never do full lock turns, or hit that 'spot of resistance'.

However, I did in several instances thinking it was just the tires hitting the cold air intake or the wheel well, and I think that by pushing the power steering too far on occasions, like parking and 3 point turns, perhaps progressively damaged the rack. (Edit: rack not causing the handling issue, its just a co-incidence repair as it failed days before the shop booking)

And thats where I'm at today, folks - little Sparky is getting her rack replaced.

Man, you've been through the wringer on this issue.

Hope this solves the problem once and for all.

Fingers crossed for Wednesday.

PS

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aw geez I put this in the wrong forum.. oops i'll see if it can be bumped

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I think it's in the right sub forum? Maybe Daox moved it already.

Yep I moved it. Hope that fixes your issues too!

Your thinking of the rack and steering bottoming out is sort of backward. While you are correct forcing the wheel into the wheel well but continuing to turn the wheel harder can cause damage.. you are more likely to pop the inner tie rod end than damaging the rack internally. The fact that it rubs the car before lock to lock actually means you are using the middle of the gear.

If you had a stock height car, and didn't rub on anything, and turned the wheel to lock (doing donuts for something) you could damage the rack internally. Although from my experience, your most likely to blow out a CV axle before the rack goes.

I am interested in your results. The k frame needs to come out to do the rack. It is almost impossible otherwise. But I still think your floating issue is the inner tie rod joint. Which will get replaced with the rack, so I feel confident your issue will be fixed (provided the other things you already named are good). The aveo does not have an OEM part number for the inner tie rod.

The leak could be related to the K frame issue.. i assume its rusted in place and need cut out? The lines on the rack or to the pump can rust and leak too.

Car got picked up today, issue is not fixed. Super disappointed.. this was really expensive, 1500 canadian bucks to check steering replace rack and do alignment! (before taxes, 850 labour, 450 for the rack, 65 for bushings, 85 for consumables, 60 for hazmat and sublet) The shop didn't cut out the sub-frame, just two siezed lower engine frame bushings that they had to cut out and replace. The steering rack looked like a leaky shock on one side. No mention of replacing the inner tie rod.
First time car went to this shop, they replaced the driver side control arm, and serviced the coil-overs. I had pre-purchased the passenger side control arm because that's what I thought it would be.. but they told me it was the drivers side (again?? ok if you say so), so I trusted their judgement, returned the passenger control arm to the auto parts store. Geez its frustrating having spent so much money to not even fix this handling issue!
Here is my description on the record for all you experienced mechanics out there:
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-car steering/frame responsiveness is loosey feeling when you sway the car left to right with steering wheel, only noticeable above 40mph, and more noticeable the faster you go (ie. the more you load up the g-forces)
-car pulls to the right when braking, really noticeable over 55mph (have to compensate by steering to left on hard brake)
-if curving to the right and braking the car doesn't stay in line, it again seems to pull to the right causing a fishtail effect where the rear end seems to kick out to the left (have to compensate by steering a bit to the left to correct fishtail, this test is the most noticeable way to show something is wrong because... see next point)
-if curving to the left and braking the car just pretty much stays in line and follows the curve as it should
-alternating between flooring it and a hard braking in second gear the car pulls to the right on brake and it seems a much smaller but noticeable pull to the left when accelerating
My thinking is this points to the front passenger side suspension/steering being loose somewhere. Why? If something is loose on the front passenger side that means under braking load the passenger side wheel could 'toe out' a bit because of the play, whereas the drivers side wouldn't and this could cause the car to pull to the right. Similarly upon accelerating the passenger side wheel could also 'toe in' a bit because of the play, whereas the drivers side wouldn't and consequently this could push the car to the left slightly. Reasonable reasoning, no?
Ok everyone, that's my logic... now I'm not a negative person, and actually should probably be more assertive at the shop but you know how shops are, yadda yadda we did this, yadda yadda, maybe you just need to drive it some more until it gets worse so we can find it. I mentioned the inner tie rod to the shop before the session.
Could it be uneven brakes? It could but they were completely replaced just a few years ago... I know what a dragging brake feels like.
I asked the shop did they really get in there with a crowbar when they were looking for play and they showed me the giant crowbar. Where else can the play come from??!? Geez I said to them look with all the money I've spent I want you to put the car back up on the hoist and get in that passenger side with a crowbar, and tell me again you find nothing. How can this issue be this difficult to diagnose?!?! Two shops, and three separate expensive visits! Ya I just spent a whack 'o jack on 'lil Sparky, and if she goes at least two more years, this shop bill will amortize itself, as I forget how many years have gone by spending nothing. Still this is getting beyond frustrating now. And like I said the motor is in such great shape, I just can't give up on this car. I still think paying to fix this steering/suspension/bushing issue is the smartest way to go, fiscally.
Stumped I tell you, fellow Aveo friends. Gimme some weekend feedback please, I am open to criticism, optimism, suggestions, consoling for the loss of my hard earned cash on this problem. And if it turns out to be the passenger side control arm or inner tie rod, both of these shops are going to get my full write up, time stamped sequence of events, complete sets of documents/receipts.

Even in a parking lot, there are a few things you could check yourself.

However, you sound like you have all your receipts? looks at what associated parts have been replaced.
I agree with your further explanation, and reasoning. It sounds like the passenger suspension has something loose.
While it very well could be the control arm bushings, I wouldn't doubt you if that fixes it. The inner tie rod would act the same, and some of these issues could arise with bad upper strut mounts. It is even possible to experience part of these issues with a stuck caliper or broken/disconnected sway bar (most likely end link if that is the case).

Here is what you need to try, instead of going from braking to accelerating, does returning to coasting do the same?

You could use your widow maker and put the passenger side front in the air, and just shake the wheel and tire around a little. You will be able to see if there is movement. Grabbing it a 3 and 9 o'clock would show control arm or tie rod play. If it moves, move it again looking at those parts. (Assuming you know what is what) 12 and 6 will really only show bearings, or upper control arm mounts, which will drop and rest when lifted. If you have bad bearings you should be able to grab the wheel anywhere and wobble the tire.

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Originally Posted by petrified.rabbit

Here is what you need to try, instead of going from braking to accelerating, does returning to coasting do the same?

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Hmm interesting I'll have to take it out to double test that at different speeds, but on first thought I'm gonna say no, returning to coasting does not do the same, well hmmm it depends on which gear I do in in, because in 2nd if I let off there is still the engine braking effect to account for, is that what you mean, try that test?

Another way to explain, say I start at 75mph and hit the brakes hard six times in sequence each time for half a second taking the car down to 30mph. Every time I hit the brakes the car will pull to the right, when I let off, the car will go reasonably straight. So the car would make a right turning arc overall made up of lines where it was coasting so to speak.
Also I do not possess a giant crowbar, however so perhaps I can make something out of aluminum tube and bolts and a crowbar.

You know there is far more sway in the front now compared to before when the steering felt precise. The front has more roll, its so clear to me now, far more, say driving 25mph and doing s turns, Rabbit you got me thinking here. One of the last things the shop guy had said to me was that it could be the sway bar bushing, just an off the cuff remark, it was almost as if he was thinking that himself.

If the sway bar was loose on the passenger side, do you think that would present this elusive steering issue? And pull the car to the right when braking hard? Could this explain why if the shops only take the car around the block at city speeds they don't notice it? Remember the test I mentioned, braking on a right curve caused the car to do all weird behaviour, rolling and fishtailing, yet braking on a left curve was ok.. geez the more I think about my own writing wouldn't this make sense?? I said braking on a left curve seemed fine... a left curve its the front left sway bar connection taking all the stress (or maybe think I have this backwards). On a right curve which is where the car felt all wonky that would be the front right sway bar connection.
I'm taking all the considerations and going through here, but heres where I'm at

Could it be the front passenger side strut mount? (they were replaced with the suspension)
Could it be the front passenger control arm? (supposed to have been checked 3 times already)
Could it be the inner tie rod? (supposed to have been checked 3 times already)
Could it be the front sway bar? (unknown if checked, emphasis added)
Could it be the sub-frame, since it wasn't replaced? (I thought they were replacing it, but just the two bushings)

Ok I can do the crowbar test on the wheel, how do I test the sway bar bushings? (same end-links kit from the original install)

Your list of questions is what you should be checking.

The crowbar isn't entirely necessary. Helpful, but not necessary. If you leave the wheel and tire on, that is your leverage. Which way you can get those to more is what leads you to what you need to check closer.

A sway bar bushing, like near the steering rack, would act differently than a missing or broken end link. For one you would hear a knocking type of noise when it left its stock position. It would also still hold the suspension evenly side to side. So you would;t have the wandering issues. An end link or a broken sway bar would allow each side of the car to act independently. I can't say it would allow enough movement to describe your braking/pulling. But the amount of torque steer coming back into play could. This is another discussion the amount of play that is actually there, and amount to be perceived by you. Since I am not driving the car.

You can grab the end links, move them around, see if they move. There is a ball joint on each end. This is where typical garages fail most of the time. With the suspension hanging, the joints naturally get "hung up" which feels just like a good joint. The weight needs to be off the the joint to check them, i.e. even with a car on the lift, you need to jack up the control arm to relieve the joints to check Them. This is also the EXACT same issue with checking the inner CV. Although to check that, its best to also have one working the steering wheel.

Got a third party certified technician in on this over the weekend. We got the car to pull to the right using the engine braking effect at slow speeds, as well as pulling to the right braking at hwy speeds. Either way when you let off the brakes in neutral, the pulling ceases and the car goes reasonably straight. Techie is going to look the whole front end over at their shop in the city. Now, before that, the last shop will be offered an opportunity to take one last good look at the front end again, if they do it free of charge. (Edit: they weren't interested, used the 'aftermarket' parts card) One thing this mechanic pointed as you say, Rabbit is that broken sway bar bushings are really noisy, and breaking one side affects both sides of the car. Being that my cars floating steering is not a symmetrical effect he doesn't think it would be the sway bar in my case, more leaning towards, control arm or upper a-arm I think he said. Loose end-links would be noisy too he said. Thats the weird part, there is no noise to help out the diagnosis. (Edit: until the part broke, see below..)

The first part of this post got erased, so re-writing.. so after two years of this handling issue I believe it is solved- two days ago after 5 miles on a gravel road I heard a clunk metal type sound from the pass frt while making a medium speed left turn once back on the pavement. When I got home whilst parking and steering to the right towards lock, there was a really bad grinding sound, so I decided to stop steering to the right that much until I got under the car. Turns out that clunking sound was the sway bar adapter bracket breaking in two and under steering to the right the loose end would scrape the frame. I'll talk to Rabbit and see if he agrees to remake the brackets, but twice the thickness perhaps. Also one of the end-links was clicking with just the most minute amount of play, so I'll replace that too... all the other bushings I could see looked in good condition... Edit: I thought I had some motor noise issue, that I mentioned here but see next post.
Attachment 11103Attachment 11102
I bet this bracket was 'flexing' under load and the drivers side bracket was solid - thats what caused the unsymmetrical sway imho.

Pared down the post a bit, here are the conclusions. The power steering rack needed replacing and was not the reason for poor handling (prob just rusted from all the salt). The passenger side front end-link adapter bracket was flexing and failing from metal fatigue and eventually broke two days ago. Removed the loose end, tied off the link for now, and am currently driving the car with no sway bar (as was since it broke that other day, but all that was in the city). The handling with no sway bar is waay better than the handling with the malfunctioning sway bar. Its not as precise as with it, but honestly with the coil-overs its surprisingly still pretty darn good, just not good enough, as I now know how much improvement connecting the sway bar adds.
So lets just wait for a response, but I'm thinking the logical followup is to re-make beefed up versions of those brackets (or double them up, ie. order two more sets) and get the sway bar reconnected along with replacing the passenger side control arm for the same one that's on the drivers side because currently they aren't the same (drivers side aftermarket, pass side oem, 3rd party techs recommendation)
The final conclusion for this matter is that with three shop visits, neither shop noticed the failing part, and this is likely the cause of the wonky handling. While I can't expect a shop to notice an 'aftermarket' part (its a simple angle bracket), I find it rather unsettling that they didn't check the sway bar connections very closely obviously, as the rust and failure line would have been noticeable, I bet any money, but we will never know cuz it broke off on its own.

Edit: thought maybe I had a timing belt issue with some noise, but I calmed down and went back under the car while it was idling.. its that lower pulley squeaking and I could see the bearing or collar turning as well, the sound is that of a loose un-lubricated, damaged bearing with the balls squeaking and grinding in that pulley, so its not a big issue but does need replacing. Here is a picture attached of the pulley in question:Attachment 11104

I honestly have to say, wow. That is a clean break of a part that based on the calculations was already stronger than it needed to be. In fact the weak point was supposed to be the ball joint separating.

Was there any other deflection in the shape of the part? like is the part bent to a radius? It would need to have been s shaped to break. I wonder if it folded around your strut on a hard jounce.

Maybe stepping the metal up to 3/8" would be the solution. That would be much thicker. I believe (from everyone who bought sets) that this is the only bracket that failed. So I would hope it was a defect in the metal. Like I said, the design meant the balljoint should fail first. I snapped a the ball joint on my set, I was lowered about 6" from stock at the time, (about 1/2" clearance of subframe to ground with stock sized tires, I was running huge wheels and tires that lift it up). But I had no issues with misshaped brackets.

Just a quick update, I've been corresponding with Rabbit, and he's gonna bump up the thickness on his next set of brackets. I am going in on that order. So I guess this thread won't get an update until the new brackets are installed. Until then, this frustrating issue is now looking solved. I feel so relieved after being stumped for so long. So until the install session, adieu.

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this frustrating issue is now looking solved. I feel so relieved after being stumped for so long.

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Glad to hear, northguest.

Any news on a update?? My car has been having the same issue you described for a long time and I want to find a way to fix it. It's super annoying.

Any info is appreciated.

Well the update is that I picked up the end-link adapter brackets today from the post office! And plan b to respond to your question my car doesn't have any major wonky handling issues anymore since the sway bar was disconnected. Perhaps you could try that too?
My handling issues were likely a combination of some loose bushings or tie-rods, but more significantly because 1) one of the sway bar adapter brackets was slowly succumbing to metal fatigue and was flexing, and 2) I don't have identical control arms on the car right now, drivers side is aftermarket, passenger side OEM so it was suggested to me that the passenger side control arm bushing might be softer than the drivers side (plus its a lot older too).
So next up is the shop session to re-connect the sway bar and replace the passenger side control arm.

Just wanted to say haven't forgotten out this work, just been re-directed for months, winter should clear up some time to get the mega-beefy adapter brackets on and whatnot. I've since moved from the west coast and unfortunately won't have those twisty roads anymore... I expect it will be impossible to warp these new brackets. Sorry rabbit for stalling on this one, once its done an update will be made.

Whew, geeeee-willickers, its been a long time on this one. Life finally gave me a window to focus on this again. Car is imminently to get out of a local shop I found, who has a really cool techie who is actually interested in little sparky. So, Rabbits mega-beefy end-link adapter brackets are on, and the drivers side lower control arm is replaced. I wanted to try that control arm myself because I am really eager to learn this stuff, I don't have access to a garage, only a really sloped driveway that just isn't safe enough for this guy to tackle something new.
I want to clarify that my handling issue, for those reading this thread was likely due to two things - a failing drivers side control arm bushing that was slowly worming its way out of the hole, and a failing passenger side end-link adapter bracket that was slowly flexing back and forth. Both of these issues are my own fault imho, as before this issue came up I had been 'testing' the handling of little sparky quite vigorously. Perhaps the mint green challenger could attest to that...
So this thread is just about wrapped up.. just gotta do another test drive here somewhere I can find some twisties in the 40-50mph range.. but in any case in hindsight it now makes sense to me why this handling issue was so difficult to diagnose at first, and why my observations of the handling were so asymmetrical.
Failing drivers side lower A arm bushing was likely toeing in and out that wheel, and the flexing adapter bracket on the passenger side would cause the sway bar to perform un-symmetrically. Its all fascinating to me, I've never been so curious, and yet so stumped on what the heck was up with the cars suspension. Learned a whole lot along the way.
Should be tomorrow or the next day I do a close on this. I was thinking of doing an audio recording and then take some pictures to show whats been done. I know exactly how the car used to handle. Hoping its back in town :)

I have to put book-ends on this thread. There was one more issue. The front wheel bearings, both of them, drivers side (older one) worse than the passenger side (newer one) but he said they both had to go. Here's the book-end. I didn't know wheel bearings affect handling waay before they get noisy. I assumed if they aren't noisy they are fine. Turns out wheel bearings can get loose, but still work for years with no noise. Go figure. So now, little sparky is chompin' at the bit for more power. We'll see, we'll see. I'll take a picture soon with the mega-beefy end-link adapters, and it will be as is. Maybe a picture or two after cleaned up a bit.