How to choose a shop (This is long)

As a service manager of an independent repair shop, I am appalled at how many members have horror stories of dealing with professional repair shops. Perhaps I can give a few pointers from the other side of the counter that will ease the stress of choosing a shop to do your work.

First of all, be familiar with the laws and agencies in your state or province that pertain to the automotive trade before the excrement hits the rotary screw device. Knowing your rights and your responsibilities to be able to preserve those rights gives you a leg up on an unscrupulous shop operator. Here in Alberta, we are accountable to a government body called AAMVIC. Most jurisdictions in North America likely have similarly legislated groups. By doing your research in the middle of a dispute, you may have given up some of your rights already.

Ask around. Your friends and coworkers probably know of an honest shop that does good work.

Ask questions at the shop. What are their warranty terms? Do they have the latest software in their scan tools? Do they subscribe to database services such as Identifix or IATN to get help diagnosing really oddball problems? Do they call for permission to proceed before doing any work? Do they use Mitchell or some other time estimator or do they just “wing it”? Are their technicians certified and fully equipped with the tools to complete your job? Do they have an ongoing training program?

Let them do the diagnostics. I don’t know how many times guys have come into the shop saying the problem is “A” and after running on the rabbit trail they created we find that the problem is “B”. Guess who pays for that time? My worst case scenario in that regard was a new customer who came in and said another shop had said the transmission in his Ford diesel was pooched. He did not want us to diagnose it, just change it out for a remanufactured unit. After installing a $3000 H.D. automatic transmission, the original problem still existed. What the truck had needed was a $400 solenoid pack. He felt that we had ripped him off because we did what he contracted us to do, but he was too cheap to have us diagnose it which would have saved him thousands of dollars.

Let the shop supply the parts. Whoever supplies the parts supplies the warranty. You may think you are beating the system by using your lower priced parts, but shops have suppliers and reps they use consistently because when crap happens, those suppliers and reps step up to the plate. I have been able to get warranty on out of warranty parts from suppliers and reps that I have a good working relationship with. If you supply the parts, unless you can prove an install problem, all costs are yours.

Pay the workman his due. My lead tech has tools and toolboxes worth around $100,000! He has over 25 years of experience. The automotive trade is dying. Last stats I saw was that the average age of a technician was 51 years old and for every 2 that retire, only 1 is entering the trade. Because of this, shops are competing for qualified techs and the wages are going up to get techs.
One last thing. You do not have to take your car to a dealership to maintain your factory warranty. Any qualified shop can maintain your car. If the shop you choose subscribes to Mitchell, IATN, or Identifix they can often tell you about “secret” warranties that the dealer won’t mention.

Post any questions. I’ll be glad to answer.

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The automotive trade is dying. Last stats I saw was that the average age of a technician was 51 years old and for every 2 that retire, only 1 is entering the trade. Because of this, shops are competing for qualified techs and the wages are going up to get techs.

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THIS is the main Problem; because of the older average age, shops are asking for technicians with lots of experience that a Technician just entering (or attempting to enter) the trade (l would fall into Category #2) DOES NOT HAVE. to put it bluntly, the deck is stacked in favor of the older techs with experience, while the young techs just starting out, eager to learn and are also usually up to speed on the latest technology both in the vehicle (everything from our Aveos to the largest of earthmoving machinery) and in the toolbox, struggle to find a shop to even give them a chance.

You are right. The aging tech is a problem. Where you are locally there may be a low demand for apprentices or new techs, but here I have a hard time even getting applicants. Research the archives for http://www.aveoforum.com/forum/f81/help-wanted-16673/. I was so desperate for a tech I even posted a job on here. - no takers. Our shop runs with 2 - 3 techs and an apprentice. My lead tech is 50, my second tech is 38, and my apprentice is 28. In the past the boss has taken on apprentices as young as 17.

This is a universal problem. The reality is that any bright young guy with solid work ethic can excel in this trade. But a shop that provides good mentoring and helps the new guys get to where they can operate independently usually lose them to bigger operations that focus on productivity rather than mentoring. We don't get paid for mentoring !

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Originally Posted by ChuckMosher

This is a universal problem. The reality is that any bright young guy with solid work ethic can excel in this trade. But a shop that provides good mentoring and helps the new guys get to where they can operate independently usually lose them to bigger operations that focus on productivity rather than mentoring. We don't get paid for mentoring !

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We might not get paid for mentoring, but we will perish if we don't. That is the irony of the situation.

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Originally Posted by thankful_ragamuffin

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One last thing. You do not have to take your car to a dealership to maintain your factory warranty. Any qualified shop can maintain your car....

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I spend time on a number of other forums which represent the newer vehicles in our family. It's appalling to me how many owners post that they automatically participate in the full 'service' schedule recommended by their new car dealer. They pay through the nose for things such as 'checking the computers' and 'cleaning battery terminals'. I've posted the same thing that you wrote above, but I doubt that it ever makes an impression on anyone. People will continue to do what they do.

Thanks to you TR for sharing your professional perspective on selecting a shop, and I'd have no problem being one of your customers! Being a DIYer, I don't need a shop, but here's what I would do if I did want to select one to do my work. I'd chose from a list of every shop in the area which does free estimates, or charges a very nominal fee ($10-20). That would eliminate all of the stealerships, who routinely charge $100 up front, regardless of the circumstances. Not that I'd ever want to go to one of them anyway.

I'd bring them a perfectly running vehicle, and tell them that it often skips and shudders. I'd also tell them there were OEM plugs installed 10K prior. Yes, this requires a bit of dishonesty, but this is after all the auto industry, right? I'd insist on no work done prior to their estimate, and then listen to what each one has to say. Naturally, I'd be looking for the guy(s) who tells me they can't find anything wrong, and the vehicle seems to be fine. A shop suggesting any work (including further billed diagnosis) gets voted off the island. This will find (if it exists), that rare combination of competence and honesty in one easy step.

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Originally Posted by avguy

I'd chose from a list of every shop in the area which does free estimates, or charges a very nominal fee ($10-20). That would eliminate all of the stealerships, who routinely charge $100 up front, regardless of the circumstances. Not that I'd ever want to go to one of them anyway.

I'd bring them a perfectly running vehicle, and tell them that it often skips and shudders. I'd also tell them there were OEM plugs installed 10K prior. Yes, this requires a bit of dishonesty, but this is after all the auto industry, right?

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Well, I have to tell you a free estimate is usually worth what you pay for it. When a shop owner has to pay a tech in excess of $40 per hour to diagnose your car (which is what you're asking for for free), he has to recoup that somewhere. Being dishonest creates a rabbit trail that takes more time and a greater charge. What I try to establish with my customers is a relationship. I want them to be comfortable with our shop, our techs and our competence. DIY guys are a tough sell as they tend to second guess our diags, and they don't respect the time it takes because for most of them it is a hobby. For the cash strapped or the budding DIY guy I will charge for the diagnosis and offer advice on how to fix it themselves.

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Originally Posted by thankful_ragamuffin

... When a shop owner has to pay a tech in excess of $40 per hour to diagnose your car (which is what you're asking for for free),...

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I should have called this a 'quick look' instead of an estimate. I'm assuming that if someone came to your shop and asked you to take a quick look at their vehicle, you would do that basically for free, correct? I'm talking about a high level, 5-10 minute evaluation, in order to determine the next step - probably further,detailed diagnosis that the customer would need to pay for.

If you agree with that general idea, then when they look at my vehicle, it runs and sounds great. A likely additional step would be to plug in a reader to confirm no codes and all OBD values within spec. All of that takes less than 5 minutes. At that point a good, honest shop should just hand the keys back and tell me to bring it back when it's having problems.

But if you don't run your shop that way and disagree with what I just wrote, no problem since this is JMHO in any case.

I'm probably one level above DIY, in that I have a small shop where I do car repair for the general public. Because it's a sideline business, I have limited hours (evenings and weekends) that I work for customers. However, I still have to pay for my business insurance, tools, training (actually working on building upon my ASE certification) - all of which adds up. Since I'm not trying to make this a major income stream, I also don't charge the rates that a normal shop does; labor is $25 per hour (some jobs flat rate at slightly higher), and my markup on parts averages around 35%. I'm not the least bit delusional in thinking I could sustain a business at those rates - my shop is at my home, so I don't have rent on it or anything like that.

All that said, I agree wholeheartedly with the original post - there are too many people that either expect something for free, or refuse to listen to the mechanic when he (or she) is trying to educate the customer. I've had people cuss me out for marking up parts - saying I should only charge what it costs me! My response to that is usually along the lines of "show me any business model that provides the customer with materials at cost, and let me know how long they will stay open". They don't factor in the cost and time of me going to get said parts (I have a commercial account at O'Reilly, and they deliver - but may not always have parts in stock). I've also run into the "I got my parts on the interweb, can you install them?" - sure, I can; but I will not warranty the parts, and if they fail a week later - you'll be buying more parts (unless I screw it up on install).

At least in my experience, one of the biggest struggles a mechanic faces is a general lack of trust - thanks to the number of unscrupulous jerks out there that try and milk customers for every penny they can. We actually had a shop here that was charging people on every job for $5 to check the air in their tires!
I have personally turned down work, if I don't feel that I can do the job in the timeframe the customer needs, or if I feel that the customer may be making a poor judgment call - just a week ago, I had a potential customer call and ask if I thought it would be a good idea to rebuild the engine in his 99 Dodge Dakota. 3.7L, engine ate at least 2 valves due to broken springs. I asked him about the condition of the rest of the vehicle - he stated that it had new tires, but the body and frame were very badly rusted (salt used widely around here). He also stated he had a line on a newer truck as a replacement, but Sears had told him it needed $800 in repairs, so he wasn't sure what route to take. I spent about 20 minutes reviewing options, and told him I didn't honestly think the Dodge was worth saving. He thanked me and hung up - he called me back yesterday to thank me for the honest opinion, and get a price quote for brakes on his new truck...

I always dread the customers that have attempted to diagnose or repair their own issues with a lack of knowledge - I just had to fix the backup lights on a 98 Subaru - the problem was the switch on the transaxle, but the prior owner had decided to cut the wires at the rear of the car, and used speaker wire to hook up a toggle switch on the dash for the lights. They had actually run power to the switch by running the wire out the driver's door, over the fender, and directly to the battery! How this thing never caught fire is a mystery to me.....

If I were looking for a shop to perform work for me; I can say I'd certainly appreciate the sort of work ethic that TR seems to display - much more so than some of the yahoos I've seen in the business.

Thanks for the clarification, Avguy. Quick looks are free and usually done by myself or my boss. If a paid tech needs to get involved, then the costs begin.

Thank you jimzdat. I understand your problems and would encourage you to continue on the way you are going.

Good thread, TR.

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Originally Posted by thankful_ragamuffin

Ask around. Your friends and coworkers probably know of an honest shop that does good work.

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I do almost all my own maintenance/repairs, unless (A) something breaks in the middle of winter and I don't feel like freezing while dealing with it, or (B) it needs a specialized tool or a vehicle lift. (If I can't easily do it on ramps/jack stands, I'm out.)

But after using several independent shops, I found a shop owner I trust. This shop doesn't make a lot of money from me personally because I DIY, but over the years I've sent many friends and family his way and he knows it. As a result, I think I get treated even better when I do show up with my own vehicle once every year or so.

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Originally Posted by MetroMPG

But after using several independent shops, I found a shop owner I trust. This shop doesn't make a lot of money from me personally because I DIY, but over the years I've sent many friends and family his way and he knows it. As a result, I think I get treated even better when I do show up with my own vehicle once every year or so.

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Yes, loyalty is generally rewarded.

FYI Everyone - The latest stats I got are for every 4.5 guys leaving the trade, only 1 is coming in. All you D.I.Y guys should train to go pro.

You know things are interesting when the local Toyota dealer has paid, twice, to run a full page colour ad in the local newspaper looking for one new tech.

Late to the party, but a cool post. When I was a real 'pro' at mark Christopher Chevrolet in the late 80's the shop labor rate was a whopping $45 an hour. Gee how times have changed! The point I wanted to make, is even back then (pre internet!) - the interest in the mechanic trade was VERY weak, it just was not the hot thing back then, people told me I was wasting my time learning that stuff. Now I can see how this has gone full circle and evolved into a glut of good talent. Hell, most high schools in my state don't even have an auto shop class. Heck MY old high school no longer has an auto shop class. Seems to be a vanishing skill set to say the least. I hung up my career in mechanics after 4 short years, as I was told something new was about to spring onto the world, and that I would get more pay and less harsher working conditions and jumped on it when I could. I still love working on cars today, I never got into it as a 'money making career' I just liked cars. Hence I saw that my marketing potential was limited. As on old fart, I would strongly suggest young people get into the industry, especially if you like working on cars. There should be no shortage of work anyway!

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Originally Posted by 06T200

Late to the party, but a cool post. When I was a real 'pro' at mark Christopher Chevrolet in the late 80's the shop labor rate was a whopping $45 an hour. Gee how times have changed! The point I wanted to make, is even back then (pre internet!) - the interest in the mechanic trade was VERY weak, it just was not the hot thing back then, people told me I was wasting my time learning that stuff. Now I can see how this has gone full circle and evolved into a glut of good talent. Hell, most high schools in my state don't even have an auto shop class. Heck MY old high school no longer has an auto shop class. Seems to be a vanishing skill set to say the least. I hung up my career in mechanics after 4 short years, as I was told something new was about to spring onto the world, and that I would get more pay and less harsher working conditions and jumped on it when I could. I still love working on cars today, I never got into it as a 'money making career' I just liked cars. Hence I saw that my marketing potential was limited. As on old fart, I would strongly suggest young people get into the industry, especially if you like working on cars. There should be no shortage of work anyway!

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As vehicles evolve, DIY will become less and less of an option. With fewer guys entering the trade, the labour costs will escalate to the point car ownership will be unaffordable except for the very rich. It will force everybody to live in high density cities and use transit systems whether they want to or not.

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Originally Posted by thankful_ragamuffin

As vehicles evolve, DIY will become less and less of an option. With fewer guys entering the trade, the labour costs will escalate to the point car ownership will be unaffordable except for the very rich. It will force everybody to live in high density cities and use transit systems whether they want to or not.

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I think we may already be past this line, at least when it comes to maintenance/repair costs, look at any 'new car' and the writing on the wall is pretty clear, these 'safety traps' will be very, VERY expensive to own - just as soon as the warranty expires. Hell, just an air bag deployment can push a car's repair cost above the value of the entire car, placing it in the 'total loss' column.

Personal automotive transportation has been on a slow twisted morph from independent free travel, into fly-by-wire, OnStar telematics, 10 air bags, and hundreds of other mandated safety/nanny widgets that equate into 4,000 pound econobox 'compact' cars that get less gas mileage than many older cars. So much for value for your money, it's all about 'safety' and on-board Internet now. Question is, what do they do when the warranty expires in a few years? Get that wallet out! My strategy is to hold onto my old iron, maintain them and drive them till the day driving a 'vintage car' is outlawed by the powers that should not be. They will have to pry my carburetor's out of my cold dead hands! lol

More on the fun of new cars...
Some New Car Things to Know - EPautos

Amen to that 06T200! I just picked up an '88 F250 4x4 that I plan to retrofit with a carb and a Davis Unified Igniton HEI system and drive until they take my licence away due to age.